ranty feminist alert
Apr. 28th, 2008 05:56 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
janegodzillaI got sort of snippy with a friend of mine last night, and I can't tell whether I feel bad about it or not. Part of me wants to excuse the whole thing on the grounds that I know he's a decent guy and probably didn't mean to come off the way he did, and after everything that's gone down with the Open Source Boob Project in the past week or so, I've been a lot touchier than normal on the subject of male privilege and how it relates to women's bodies. On the other hand, decent guys like my friend can fall into the trap of privileged thinking just as easily as pure assholes can. Letting it slide doesn't do anybody any favors.
I guess I should explain a little more so this all makes sense. FriendGuy keeps a blog about the trials of navigating the dating world after the end of a long-term relationship. For the most part, it's funny and well-written, and quite a few of the entries are of the "Help, I don't understand why girls do X, Y, and/or Z!" variety. And that's fine. Where I start to get a little tetchy is where the tone shifts from "I don't understand why girls do X, Y, and/or Z" to "I don't understand why girls do X, Y, and/or Z specifically in order to tease/titillate me." That sort of thing tends to set off my male privilege alarms, just as comments about poor people needing to work harder sets off my class privilege alarms. There are a lot of really unpleasant assumptions lurking just beneath the surface of statements like that, and it pisses me off.
The post in question dealt with a pair of girls in bikinis on the beach. The word "flaunt" was used. And you know how girls hook their fingers in the seams of their suit bottoms so they can smooth them out? I was under the impression that this was the most hassle-free way to fix a potential wedgie -- lord knows I've used that maneuver plenty of times -- but no, apparently we do this because we know boys are watching us, and we totally want to draw attention to our asses. What's more, we know how much this torments said boys -- you can look, but you can't touch! -- and so we do it on purpose. Just to fuck with them.
Fuck.
That.
I think he was a little surprised by how grouchy my reply was (it was something along the lines of, "For the love of god, not everything girls do is for the benefit of the BOYS looking at them") and apologized for coming off so black-and-white about it. But then he also said that it was "blatant" in the case of these particular girls, and that there was no need to get my feathers so ruffled.
Blergh.
What really kills me is that I was one of maybe two people who had an issue with the post. The other commenters were either guys who agreed with him ("Man, those girls were totally fucking with you! Why are all girls such teases?!"), or girls who did nothing but reinforce his stance ("LOL OMG WE TOTALLY DO TEASE LIEK THAT! WE LIKE WHEN BOYS LOOK AT US!"). I can't help but feel really depressed about that, like...way to make the rest of us look bad, ladies. Obviously, there are women who enjoy teasing guys and being ogled, just as the OSBP proved that there are plenty of women who are okay with people both asking to touch and actually touching their breasts. But that doesn't mean all of us are like that.
I must be more upset about this than I realized, because I honestly have no idea where I'm going with this rant. It bothers me that a lot of guys see the world as one where girls constantly tease them with the promise of sex, where everything we say, do, wear, whatever is viewed as All About Men. A girl in a low-cut top at a convention is "obviously putting her assets on display." Girls adjusting their bikinis on the beach are "flaunting" their bodies. In one of the comments, FriendGuy's roommate added something to the effect of, "All men desire are women, and all women desire is to be desired by men," and that makes me so fucking SICK that I can't breathe.
Because, after all, it's a very short step from that to saying that women should find male attention flattering, no matter how uncomfortable it makes us. What, that guy's staring at your ass? Why, you should be flattered! Having a man pay attention to you is all you really want anyway, because why else would you stand where he could see you? It bothers you that your boss won't quit looking at your chest? You should feel honored and special, not insulted. It's your own fault for showing your cleavage, anyway.
And I think there are a lot of guys who don't understand this, who don't get how exhausting it is to be looked at, day after day, how tiring it can be to be treated as if your body exists for their benefit. How unnerving it can be when someone harasses you not because you're just some random person walking past, but because you happen to have breasts. Living in the city, I've had my fair share of freaky encounters with crazy, drunk, and/or scary people, but none of them have made me feel more unsafe or scared than the ones where my sex was an issue. Part of me always feels a little dumb by how upset I get over this -- after all, no one's ever tried to touch me or otherwise attack me. I feel as though people merely saying things shouldn't upset me as much as it does.
But every once in a while, a drunk guy will be there when I'm waiting at a crosswalk. He'll get in my space, slur that he wants to see my tits. Every once in a while, some otherwise innocuous man will pass me on the street and leer, tell me I'm beautiful, and when I ignore him he goes from sleazy to psychotic in less than a second and screams that I should just be a fucking prostitute, and when I keep walking, he yells after me, calls me a fucking whore, a filthy fucking whore. It's not fair that I'm the one to feel dirty and scared whenever this happens, like I'm being punished for being female, but that's how it goes, kid. We're nothing but tits and ass and cunt, and if we're not flattered by it, it's our own damn fault.
Obviously, most men aren't this reductionist in their thinking. I know FriendGuy isn't, nor are most of the guys in my acquaintance. But objectification can be subtle, and right now anything that remotely smacks of it pisses me the hell off. The OSBP was kind of triggery for reasons I don't really feel like going into right now, and while it was the good sort of triggery -- the kind that makes me angry as opposed to depressed -- I can't help but worry that I'm overreacting to the FriendGuy situation. I keep wanting to make excuses for him -- he's a nice guy, he genuinely loves women, he just didn't express himself very well -- but every time I do, I keep circling back to those words "flaunt" and "torment", to being told that I don't need to get my feathers ruffled.
I don't like it when people tell me not to get upset. Especially if I think there's something worth being upset about.
Ugh, whatever. I have no idea where I'm going with this. All I know is that I'm unhappy about it.
I guess I should explain a little more so this all makes sense. FriendGuy keeps a blog about the trials of navigating the dating world after the end of a long-term relationship. For the most part, it's funny and well-written, and quite a few of the entries are of the "Help, I don't understand why girls do X, Y, and/or Z!" variety. And that's fine. Where I start to get a little tetchy is where the tone shifts from "I don't understand why girls do X, Y, and/or Z" to "I don't understand why girls do X, Y, and/or Z specifically in order to tease/titillate me." That sort of thing tends to set off my male privilege alarms, just as comments about poor people needing to work harder sets off my class privilege alarms. There are a lot of really unpleasant assumptions lurking just beneath the surface of statements like that, and it pisses me off.
The post in question dealt with a pair of girls in bikinis on the beach. The word "flaunt" was used. And you know how girls hook their fingers in the seams of their suit bottoms so they can smooth them out? I was under the impression that this was the most hassle-free way to fix a potential wedgie -- lord knows I've used that maneuver plenty of times -- but no, apparently we do this because we know boys are watching us, and we totally want to draw attention to our asses. What's more, we know how much this torments said boys -- you can look, but you can't touch! -- and so we do it on purpose. Just to fuck with them.
Fuck.
That.
I think he was a little surprised by how grouchy my reply was (it was something along the lines of, "For the love of god, not everything girls do is for the benefit of the BOYS looking at them") and apologized for coming off so black-and-white about it. But then he also said that it was "blatant" in the case of these particular girls, and that there was no need to get my feathers so ruffled.
Blergh.
What really kills me is that I was one of maybe two people who had an issue with the post. The other commenters were either guys who agreed with him ("Man, those girls were totally fucking with you! Why are all girls such teases?!"), or girls who did nothing but reinforce his stance ("LOL OMG WE TOTALLY DO TEASE LIEK THAT! WE LIKE WHEN BOYS LOOK AT US!"). I can't help but feel really depressed about that, like...way to make the rest of us look bad, ladies. Obviously, there are women who enjoy teasing guys and being ogled, just as the OSBP proved that there are plenty of women who are okay with people both asking to touch and actually touching their breasts. But that doesn't mean all of us are like that.
I must be more upset about this than I realized, because I honestly have no idea where I'm going with this rant. It bothers me that a lot of guys see the world as one where girls constantly tease them with the promise of sex, where everything we say, do, wear, whatever is viewed as All About Men. A girl in a low-cut top at a convention is "obviously putting her assets on display." Girls adjusting their bikinis on the beach are "flaunting" their bodies. In one of the comments, FriendGuy's roommate added something to the effect of, "All men desire are women, and all women desire is to be desired by men," and that makes me so fucking SICK that I can't breathe.
Because, after all, it's a very short step from that to saying that women should find male attention flattering, no matter how uncomfortable it makes us. What, that guy's staring at your ass? Why, you should be flattered! Having a man pay attention to you is all you really want anyway, because why else would you stand where he could see you? It bothers you that your boss won't quit looking at your chest? You should feel honored and special, not insulted. It's your own fault for showing your cleavage, anyway.
And I think there are a lot of guys who don't understand this, who don't get how exhausting it is to be looked at, day after day, how tiring it can be to be treated as if your body exists for their benefit. How unnerving it can be when someone harasses you not because you're just some random person walking past, but because you happen to have breasts. Living in the city, I've had my fair share of freaky encounters with crazy, drunk, and/or scary people, but none of them have made me feel more unsafe or scared than the ones where my sex was an issue. Part of me always feels a little dumb by how upset I get over this -- after all, no one's ever tried to touch me or otherwise attack me. I feel as though people merely saying things shouldn't upset me as much as it does.
But every once in a while, a drunk guy will be there when I'm waiting at a crosswalk. He'll get in my space, slur that he wants to see my tits. Every once in a while, some otherwise innocuous man will pass me on the street and leer, tell me I'm beautiful, and when I ignore him he goes from sleazy to psychotic in less than a second and screams that I should just be a fucking prostitute, and when I keep walking, he yells after me, calls me a fucking whore, a filthy fucking whore. It's not fair that I'm the one to feel dirty and scared whenever this happens, like I'm being punished for being female, but that's how it goes, kid. We're nothing but tits and ass and cunt, and if we're not flattered by it, it's our own damn fault.
Obviously, most men aren't this reductionist in their thinking. I know FriendGuy isn't, nor are most of the guys in my acquaintance. But objectification can be subtle, and right now anything that remotely smacks of it pisses me the hell off. The OSBP was kind of triggery for reasons I don't really feel like going into right now, and while it was the good sort of triggery -- the kind that makes me angry as opposed to depressed -- I can't help but worry that I'm overreacting to the FriendGuy situation. I keep wanting to make excuses for him -- he's a nice guy, he genuinely loves women, he just didn't express himself very well -- but every time I do, I keep circling back to those words "flaunt" and "torment", to being told that I don't need to get my feathers ruffled.
I don't like it when people tell me not to get upset. Especially if I think there's something worth being upset about.
Ugh, whatever. I have no idea where I'm going with this. All I know is that I'm unhappy about it.
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(no subject)
Date: 2008-04-29 04:00 am (UTC)It's torment for him to see a scantily-clad woman at the beach? Who isn't sexually interested in him? Maybe he should either get over it, or stop going to the beach. Honestly-- entitlement complex. And a lot of guys-- even the nice ones-- fail to get it on levels. It's not about them being a subspecies, it's about them being brought up in a world that has taught them that women are a second class type of person and are just there to provide them with something, or they're worthless.
It doesn't mean that they're write-offs, by any means, but that they probably should step back and think about how it would be to be stuck in a female body for awhile.
The women in question MIGHT have been flirting with him: maybe. But did they go over and hit on him? Did he try any kind of litmus test to see if they were more interested and then back off/give them his number depending on their reaction? No. He chose to be a big privileged whiner and vent about it on his blog instead.
And then there are the guys who are so entitlementy that they believe that no one would possibly refuse them. The guys who think teenagers in school uniforms are trying to be sexy. (Um, newsflash: when I was a kid, I had to wear the damn thing because it was compulsory. And I caught public transport when getting home from school. I was NOT asking for sexual attention: I was going about my daily business. And I've had leery, creepy men think I was wanting it when I was dressed in a relatively conservative manner, but from stuff they said, I was "wanting it." Maybe these women were just going for a swim and don't like the feeling of one-pieces? Maybe they WERE "putting on a show" but for someone else?)
Fat and ugly men don't bother me at all. ANY guys-- not just the physically unappealing ones-- are capable of thinking women are just there to get them off, and guys right across the appearance and body-shape spectrum can be offensive and scary. Hey, have a look at Ted Bundy. He was pretty hot, if you ignore the personality.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-04-29 04:38 am (UTC)Well, that was actually a miscommunication. I meant to say those who happen to be fat and/or ugly in addition to being creepy douchebags (which is very common when it comes to dudes catcalling...in my experience anyway). Sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like it was okay if they are handsome, because it's not.
Yeah, they're adults, but...well, again, what's getting angry about it going to solve?
I guess I try to be optimistic. And optimism either involves actively trying to improve the world (one misinformed nice guy at a time), or just assuming the guys who make you feel uncomfortable and shitty are just really worthless and ignorant and not worth a second of your time. It also includes recognizing that, for all the shitty men in the world out there, there are just as many shitty girls who are encouraging this type of behavior. I would treat them similarly, either way.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-04-29 04:58 am (UTC)I don't think anger has to solve anything, but I think people have a right to it. Feeling uncomfortable or depressed or scared doesn't solve anything, either, but people still have those feelings about things.
I don't think men have the right to be angry about shallow gold diggers. If we didn't live under the system we're in, women wouldn't be able to be gold diggers. The way I'm seeing it, those women are just making the best of a bad situation. If women's appearance and "niceness" weren't prized above their abilities, we wouldn't have trophy wives. If women and men had the same opportunities, particularly when it comes to the financial end of things, women wouldn't be cozying up to men to be financially supported. (Or, look, there would be the odd one, just like how there are Kevin Federlines in the world, but the people doing this wouldn't be OVERWHELMINGLY female.)
You either do something about the cases you encounter, or just accept it and do everything you can to not let it affect your life.
See, I think that calling it out, encouraging your sons/family/workmates/whoever to rethink their attitudes and getting annoyed enough to write to the people pushing this status quo is doing something. And if we can't do anything or they won't listen, we have EVERY RIGHT to be pissed off. I'm not going to smile about being considered a piece of meat because I don't have a Y chromosome.
just assuming the guys who make you feel uncomfortable and shitty are just really worthless and ignorant and not worth a second of your time
The thing is, though, it's NOT just the "bad apples" who do this. (They're just an extreme at one end-- just like how plenty of well-intentioned nice white people can be racist but aren't members of the KKK. Doesn't mean they're all racist arseholes but it DOES mean that they still have rethinking and relearning to do about privilege).
Plenty of good, well-intentioned guys do it, too, and sometimes, when it's coming from someone intelligent and nice who's a friend, it IS infuriating and confronting. Because you expected better, you know?
there are just as many shitty girls who are encouraging this type of behavior
Fuck yeah, and they piss me off, too. Part of me feels sorry for them because honestly, they're playing into a system which is working against them (and which isn't going to keep them well-funded/supported etc as they get older or divorced or what-have-you) but the small benefits they get (attention, money, validation, etc) make it worthwhile for them. Still, it's fucking annoying and I seriously take issue with women who pull that crap.